If one has two signals on the same pole, but facing different directions, the
current tagging requires to place 2 nodes, one for each direction. I don't
like it, for obvious reasons…
I think I have something that we could work with, and want to her opinions on
it.
For the moment I would like to add a few restrictions to it: this only applies
to signs, and only if the same sign type is used on both sides of the pole.
Common examples are snowplow signals in Germany, where you have the "snowplow
up" on one side and "snowplow down" on the other side of the pole. Another not
that common example are Lf7 signs (speed limits). I can even think of Ne5
(stop inside station) to be shared, and here even if both directions have
different length or not plates on them. The German mappers will hopefully get
what I'm talking about. ;)
So, here is what I propose:
railway signal
railway:signal:direction forward
railway:signal:position right
railway:signal:snowplow DE-ESO:ne7
railway:signal:snowplow:form sign
railway:signal:snowplow:height normal
railway:signal:snowplow:type up
railway:signal:snowplow:type:backward down
This has the usual tagging for the Ne7 snowplow signal. It also has one
:backward, which would override the "type" for the sign mounted on the
backside of the pole, and which for obvious reasons implicitely gets a
railway:signal:direction=backward.
I could think also of something like this:
railway signal
railway:signal:direction backward
railway:signal:position left
railway:signal:stop DE-ESO:ne5
railway:signal:stop:form sign
railway:signal:stop:height dwarf
railway:signal:stop:caption 100m
railway:signal:stop:caption:backward 200m
What cannot be done using this way of tagging is:
-have a property on the forward-looking signal that the backward facing one
does not have, i.e. one cannot "delete" the caption if the forward looking one
has one, but the backward does not. One could simply invert the tagging in
that case and make the backward signal the main one, and only add the property
to the then-backside forward signal.
One case that is not yet shown is when the signal is exactly the same for both
forward and backward. I would suggest "overriding" the type in this case:
railway signal
railway:signal:direction backward
railway:signal:position left
railway:signal:stop DE-ESO:ne5
railway:signal:stop:backward DE-ESO:ne5
railway:signal:stop:form sign
railway:signal:stop:height dwarf
I'm unsure, maybe we should just always override the type in case of a
backside signal, so one does not have to check all tags.
What do you think?
Eike
Moin!
On 8/24/20 8:45 PM, Björn Mahrt wrote:
> Ja, die S-Bahn ist da ein bisschen kompliziert, ich meine mich zu
> erinnern, dass die Ne1 deshalb auch zum HH Hbf Fernbahn gehören.
Kompliziert ist richtig! :) Aber was meinst Du mit dazugehören? Die
Stellwerke sind soweit ich weiss komplett getrennt (halt bis auf die
Stellen, wo sie sich berühren - also am Hauptbahnhof die Verbindung von
Weiche 35 nach Weiche 306)
> Berliner Tor sind halt auch einfach zwei Bahnhofsteile von HH-Hbf
> S-Bahn; und die Info geht aber aus den nutzbaren Quellen des
> Betriebsstellenverzeichnisses hervor.
Ok, Danke.
> Damit müssten dann eigentlich alle
> Signale Zwischensignale sein;
Genau.
> halt beginnend mit dem ESig, das
> wahrscheinlich das direkt vor der Weichenverbindung z.B. vor Berliner
> Tor Rtg Bergedorf liegt. Aber ob das nächstvorige Signal nicht
> vielleicht doch schon ESig ist, lässt sich halt auch nicht eindeutig
> klären.
Inzwischen bin ich zuversichtlich, das an den Mastschildern erkennen zu
können.
> Liegt da eigentlich mittlerweile auch schon ETCS?
Ja, sowohl in Rothenburgsort als auch in Bergedorf (und damit wohl auch
auf der gesamten Strecke dazwischen) gibt's jede Menge Eurobalisen und
Ne14-Zeichen. Ob das streckenseitig schon aktiv ist, weiss ich nicht -
von den S-Bahnen genutzt wird es soweit ich weiss noch nicht.
> Und die ganzen
> neuen Signale dazwischen hab ich auch noch nicht geschafft :/
Sind da in letzter Zeit Signale dazugekommen? Wo lohnt es sich näher
hinzugucken, wenn ich in nächster Zeit am Hauptbahnhof Signale mappe?
Gruß
UncleOwen
[ Since this is a question about mapping train stations in Germany, I
start in German - english translation below ]
Hi,
ich frage mich gerade: Wie kann ich rausfinden,
* von wo bis wo ein Bahnhof geht
* was ist ESig, was ZSig, was ASig
* ob das, was ich sehe ein oder zwei Bahnhöfe sind
Ich weiss, dass ein Bahnhof in der Regel durch seine Einfahrsignale
begrenzt wird wird. In vielen Fällen ist offensichtlich, was die
Einfahrsignale sind - manchmal aber nicht. Deshalb suche ich Indizien,
anhand derer man Einfahrsignale identifizieren kann. Ich kenne bereits:
* ESig in Fahrtrichtung VOR der ersten Weiche, ASig VOR der letzten Weiche
* Signale stehen im Bahnhof rechts vom Gleis, ausserhalb des Bahnhofs
(incl. ESig) am zweigleisigen Strecken aussen
* Signalbezeichnungen:
* A, (B, C, ...) ESig der einen Richtung
* F, (G, H, ...) ESig der anderen Richtung
* doppelte Buchstaben für ESigs am Gegengleis
* N, P für ASigs
* alle anderen Buchstaben für Zsigs
* Hauptsignale, die auf gleicher Höhe wie Trapeztafeln stehen, sind ESigs
* Rangierhalttafeln stehen zwischen ASig und ESig der Gegenrichtung
Was aber, wenn diese Indizien alle nicht zutreffen, bzw. sich widersprechen?
Konkret geht es mir gerade um die Hamburger S-Bahn, Hauptbahnhof,
Südende. Ist Berliner Tor eine eigenständige Betriebsstätte, oder gehört
des zum Hauptbahnhof dazu?
(Aktuell sind da so interessante Sachen wir block->intermediate->block
gemappt...)
Gruß
UncleOwen
=========================================================================
Hi,
I'm wondering: How can I find out
* where are station limits
* which is an entry signal (ESig), which an intermediate signal (ZSig),
which an exit signal (ASig)
* whether what I'm seeing is a train station or two
I know that a train station is usually limited by its entry signals. In
many cases it is obvious what the entry signals are - but sometimes not.
That's why I'm looking for clues that can be used to identify entry
signals. I already know:
* ESig in the direction of travel BEFORE the first switch, ASig BEFORE
the last switch
* When inside a station, signals are to the right of the track. When
Outside the station on double-track lines on the outside
* Signal designations:
* A, (B, C, ...) ESig one direction
* F, (G, H, ...) ESig the other way
* double letters for ESigs on the opposite track
* N, P for ASigs
* all other letters for Zsigs
* Main signals that are on the same level as trapezoid panels are ESigs
* Shunting stop panels are between ASig and ESig in the opposite direction
But what if all of these indications are incorrect or contradict each other?
Specifically, I'm currently talking about the Hamburg S-Bahn,
Hauptbahnhof, southern end. Is Berliner Tor an independent station or is
it part of the main train station?
(Currently there are so "interesting" things like block-> intermediate->
block mapped ...)
greeting
UncleOwen
Hi,
just changed the wiki part for the curved switches and saw another
discussable tag system:
Would it be better to assign the railway:vacancy_detection tags as well
to the tracks?
That would have the advantage of not having to micro-map all axle
counters to just know how the track is detected clear. The additional
mapping of axle counters or insulated rail joints shouldn't be effected
by that.
Yet another advantage would be easier rendering possibilities.
So I propose the following changes:
+ railway:vacancy_detection = [ no || insulated || counted ] on tracks.
No changes on the railway=vacancy_detection tags for point objects.
Best regards
Björn
Hello everyone. I just got started mapping with OSM/ORM. I've added and cleaned up a few things and while I'm sure I've made some mistakes I've learned quite a bit.
1.) Is there an official convention for designating passenger train storage yards at the end of the line? I've noticed some users prefer to tag them as "service_station" and the guidelines weren't too clear. To me a "service station" should be an employees-only station where regular trains do stop, but only employees are allowed to board/exit (e.g. LIRR Hillside, NJT Meadowlands Maintenance Complex). I've been adding them as yards (they're also more visible zoomed out) but if someone had already had them as service_station but I left them alone.
2.) I've noticed that if someone tagged an "area" as a yard, it won't display in ORM. For a few of these, I've added a yard "point" so it could be seen on ORM. It seems "redundant" though.
3.) Should intermodal terminals ("ramps") be tagged as yards? Should we consider a new tag?
Lastly, is there a guide for what renders in ORM and what doesn't? It might be helpful since sometimes I add something yet it takes a few days for ORM to update so it's hard to know in advance what will render.
Things that I've realized won't render: funiculars and funicular stations (they're there but no highlighting), abandoned:railway=station (would be nice to see some of the historic stops and terminals, maybe rendered with a strikethrough without the blue text), railway=preserved (the entire Strasburg Railroad wasn't rendering and it's a freight shortline as well as a tourist line, I switched it to railway=rail, usage=branch, railway:preserved=yes which worked rather nicely), signal_boxes, signals, defect detectors (and we should add defect_detector:high_car yes/no as an allowed tag), tunnel names (but bridge areas seem to render; it would be nice to "tag" the Howard Street Tunnel especially since it's right under a light rail line), turntable "areas" (possibly even turntables themselves), switches, buffer stops
Things I'm not totally sure will render: railway=workshop, railway=interlocking
Things I know will render: railway=junction, railway=crossing, railway=site (can we consider a tag for "timetable stations" on freight railroads, even as a sub-tag?), railway=milestone (can we consider a railway:position:prefix for milestone prefixes, I don't think we should use things like railway:position=mi:CFP14.0)
OK that's quite a lot for a first post from a new guy. Thanks for reading.
My best to you,
Jon
