Hi guys, (sorry for the crossposting) Yesterday I noticed a little misalignement between the wiki and the tags currently used by mappers. The wiki [0] suggests to use the tag "railway=station" on nodes only but taginfo [1] shows that there are 8120 way with that tag (and 515 relations too). We are used to say "no automated edits" and "always discuss with other mappers" so i just asked the dumb question «may I change them in Italy accordingly to the wiki?» in my local mailing list [2]. Seeing that the topic is not limited in my country, another mapper asked the same question (yeah, not really the same, but somehow related) on the tagging mailing list [3]. Two hours later someone edited [4] the wiki page removing the difference between a station and a halt, writing that the difference is only in German speaking countries (of course it's false: English has station/halt, Italian has stazione/fermata, French has gare/halte, ...) That sounds like vandalism for me. (He decided we shouldn't map reality?) We got some reactions in the Italian ML: some mappers agree with putting the tag on a node, someone like it more on ways (even buildings), other guys like relations. Other question that came up was "why is it so important for that node to be unconnected with the railway track?"
Now you know my story. Can someone help me to know exactly why it's better tagging a "railway=station" with a node only? I mean I need to have a two-line sentence to add to the wiki (tag:railway=station) for those (the majority of the guys out there) who didn't read the bible [5].
Any advice (answers, discussions, questions, doubts, ... even insults) are welcome, let me know your point of view. Thank you in advance. Mauro.
[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation [1] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/railway=station?filter=ways#map [2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2016-May/052739.html [3] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-May/029241.html [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Arailway%3Dstation&... [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging
Hello Mauro,
concerning your questions
Other question that came up was "why is it so important for that node to be unconnected with the railway track?"
Can someone help me to know exactly why it's better tagging a "railway=station" with a node only?
I prefer the passengers view of a station or halt. If we will meet "at the station" where are you expecting to find me? This is the position, I usualy use for placing the railway=station node, definitly not on a track. The track carries nodes like public_transport=stop_position. Putting 'station' on a building or even a larger area leaves it to the renderer or any other data consumer to guess the center of the station from passenges view.
Cheers Nzara
100% agree with Nzara. Important to have ONE point for station, and the mapper can better decide where this is then an algorithm.
nounours
Am 19.05.2016 um 07:28 schrieb Nzara nzaraosm@gmail.com:
Hello Mauro,
concerning your questions
Other question that came up was "why is it so important for that node to be unconnected with the railway track?"
Can someone help me to know exactly why it's better tagging a "railway=station" with a node only?
I prefer the passengers view of a station or halt. If we will meet "at the station" where are you expecting to find me? This is the position, I usualy use for placing the railway=station node, definitly not on a track. The track carries nodes like public_transport=stop_position. Putting 'station' on a building or even a larger area leaves it to the renderer or any other data consumer to guess the center of the station from passenges view.
Cheers Nzara
Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
The one point approach works for small stations with a single entrance, but is a little misleading for large station complexes with multiple entry points. We have quite a few of these in India, where both sides are equally important like the New Delhi station: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/28.64233/77.22188
In such cases its fair to add the marker in the centroid of the area, and not on any particular side. The station building would then help the user decide which entry is most convenient.
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Nounours77 kuessemondtaeglich@gmail.com wrote:
100% agree with Nzara. Important to have ONE point for station, and the mapper can better decide where this is then an algorithm.
nounours
Am 19.05.2016 um 07:28 schrieb Nzara nzaraosm@gmail.com:
Hello Mauro,
concerning your questions
Other question that came up was "why is it so important for that node to be unconnected with the railway track?"
Can someone help me to know exactly why it's better tagging a "railway=station" with a node only?
I prefer the passengers view of a station or halt. If we will meet "at
the station" where are you expecting to find me? This is the position, I usualy use for placing the railway=station node, definitly not on a track. The track carries nodes like public_transport=stop_position. Putting 'station' on a building or even a larger area leaves it to the renderer or any other data consumer to guess the center of the station from passenges view.
Cheers Nzara
Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
I find the restriction of railway=station/halt to a node overly simplistic. This decision should not be over a "convenient meeting point" or "hand-tuned centroid". It should be about what's on the ground. A node is an abstraction of reality and I don't think we should stop here. Every station occupies some area and I would happily apply the rules of public_transport=station to railway=station: map the area which is of interest to passengers.
2016-05-19 8:40 GMT+02:00 Arun Ganesh arun.planemad@gmail.com:
The one point approach works for small stations with a single entrance, but is a little misleading for large station complexes with multiple entry points. We have quite a few of these in India, where both sides are equally important like the New Delhi station: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/28.64233/77.22188
In such cases its fair to add the marker in the centroid of the area, and not on any particular side. The station building would then help the user decide which entry is most convenient.
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Nounours77 <kuessemondtaeglich@gmail.com
wrote:
100% agree with Nzara. Important to have ONE point for station, and the mapper can better decide where this is then an algorithm.
nounours
Am 19.05.2016 um 07:28 schrieb Nzara nzaraosm@gmail.com:
Hello Mauro,
concerning your questions
Other question that came up was "why is it so important for that node to be unconnected with the railway track?"
Can someone help me to know exactly why it's better tagging a "railway=station" with a node only?
I prefer the passengers view of a station or halt. If we will meet "at
the station" where are you expecting to find me? This is the position, I usualy use for placing the railway=station node, definitly not on a track. The track carries nodes like public_transport=stop_position. Putting 'station' on a building or even a larger area leaves it to the renderer or any other data consumer to guess the center of the station from passenges view.
Cheers Nzara
Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
-- Arun Ganesh @planemad http://j.mp/ArunGanesh
Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
Three additional remarks: * There is an explanation about only nodes on the wiki, did you miss it? (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation): If you want to map the station as an area, please consider that different people describe the station area differently. While passengers only have the area around the station building and the platforms in mind, railway staff and railway enthusiasts think of the whole railway area which begins at the entry signal at one side and ends at the entry signals at the other side. Therefore to avoid tagging disputes and editwars railway stations should only be mapped as nodes. * I made an own section about "Distinction Between Halt and Station" * Both the wiki pages Railway Stations and building=railway_station mention to put railway=station on the building. I guess this should be removed.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Railway_stations https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dtrain_station
2016-05-20 1:14 GMT+02:00 Joachim noreply@freedom-x.de:
I find the restriction of railway=station/halt to a node overly simplistic. This decision should not be over a "convenient meeting point" or "hand-tuned centroid". It should be about what's on the ground. A node is an abstraction of reality and I don't think we should stop here. Every station occupies some area and I would happily apply the rules of public_transport=station to railway=station: map the area which is of interest to passengers.
2016-05-19 8:40 GMT+02:00 Arun Ganesh arun.planemad@gmail.com:
The one point approach works for small stations with a single entrance, but is a little misleading for large station complexes with multiple entry points. We have quite a few of these in India, where both sides are equally important like the New Delhi station: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/28.64233/77.22188
In such cases its fair to add the marker in the centroid of the area, and not on any particular side. The station building would then help the user decide which entry is most convenient.
On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Nounours77 kuessemondtaeglich@gmail.com wrote:
100% agree with Nzara. Important to have ONE point for station, and the mapper can better decide where this is then an algorithm.
nounours
Am 19.05.2016 um 07:28 schrieb Nzara nzaraosm@gmail.com:
Hello Mauro,
concerning your questions
Other question that came up was "why is it so important for that node to be unconnected with the railway track?"
Can someone help me to know exactly why it's better tagging a "railway=station" with a node only?
I prefer the passengers view of a station or halt. If we will meet "at the station" where are you expecting to find me? This is the position, I usualy use for placing the railway=station node, definitly not on a track. The track carries nodes like public_transport=stop_position. Putting 'station' on a building or even a larger area leaves it to the renderer or any other data consumer to guess the center of the station from passenges view.
Cheers Nzara
Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
-- Arun Ganesh @planemad
Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org
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Arun Ganesh -
Joachim -
Mauro Costantini -
Nounours77 -
Nzara