We started a discussion this week on the OSM Talk-US list, because we're looking to create a tag to store the operator's short form designation (Reporting Marks system in Canada, Mexico, and the US). Most rail maps generated in the US use the reporting marks for route operator labeling rather than the operator name, and this reporting mark is also used in the US federal GIS database as the primary operator designator, so it has authoritative backing for use. One of our international readers suggested that rather than using a NA-specific tag like reporting_mark, we use something more broadly applicable like operator_identifier. I agree that's a great idea, but wanted input from the wider OpenRailwayMap community on what that tag should be before we implement something. Does "operator_identifier" make clear sense to you as a holder for an official short-form (initials or alphanumeric) designator for an operator, if such a short form is used for a particular railroad? Is there something else that might convey the idea even more clearly? For our part, it's very easy to add a line in the North American tagging wiki to make clear that whatever name we select for the tag, it is to be the Reporting Marks for railroads in our part of the world. Thanks! Chuck Virginia, USA ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Chuck Sanders <nathhad(a)gmail.com&gt; Date: Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Rail tagging in US (and North America): operator=* and reporting_marks=* To: <talk-us(a)openstreetmap.org&gt; Actually, that makes complete sense to me too. It would be very easy to use "operator_identifier", and simply clarify in the North America tagging wiki that the appropriate value is the primary reporting mark for Canada, US, and Mexico lines. I see no reason that wouldn't serve exactly the same use we were proposing, but be more widely applicable outside NA. This may be a good topic to foward to the OpenRailwayMap list for input too - I'll do that now, thanks! Chuck On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 12:07 PM Volker Schmidt <voschix(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Thanks. > > so you are saying you use something which is part of of rolling stock > identifier in a way for which it was not invented, but which is handy. > From an OSM point of view, I would prefer a neutral tag (something like > "operator_idenitfier") which in the US corresponds to the first part of the > reporting mark of the carriages of that operator. > And say in Germany it would be a different thing, but still a way of > identifying line operators. > This would give us a uniform approach. > (I know that this is in theory irrelevant as OSM keys and values are > codes, which in most cases are British English terms that make it easier to > memorise them) > > Volker > > On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 at 16:56, Chuck Sanders <nathhad(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > >> Ways. >> >> The original use of Reporting Marks in NA is for rolling stock >> identification, yes. However, it's also the only common, reliable, and >> consistent short form abbreviation for operators. It's widely used that >> way in both the railroad industry here and among the industry-connected >> portions of the public. So, not an official defined use of the mark, but >> so common in use that it is effectively industry standard here. For >> example, the FRA, the official US government agency in control of railway >> regulations, exclusively uses the reporting marks (and not full operator >> name) for identification of ways and routes in their GIS database ( >> https://fragis.fra.dot.gov/GISFRASafety/ which is OSM-compatible and >> already being used as a reference in the US). Hence, we have an official >> and authoritative source for which reporting mark is "primary" for each >> company, and most appropriate to use - and it's already used as the >> operator identification in the government map. >> >> All larger railroads do own (and often use) multiple different reporting >> marks for their equipment, but all also have a single, best known, >> "primary" reporting mark by which it will be commonly known, so this >> proposal is effective even for lines with multiple registered marks >> (especially with the help of the FRA map to clarify any inconsistencies). >> >> Chuck >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 9:35 AM Volker Schmidt <voschix(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Question on the term "reporting_mark" >>> Wikipedia defines "reporting_mark" as "code used to identify owners or >>> lessees of rolling stock <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_stock> >>> and other equipment" and describes such codes alo in other parts of the >>> world. >>> In your discussion you seem to refer to railway lines or routes and not >>> to rolling stock. >>> >>> What kind objects in OSM will carry the tag reporting_mark=* ? >>> >>> Volker >>> (Italy) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Talk-us mailing list >>> Talk-us(a)openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >>> >>

Am Montag, 15. Juni 2020, 01:56:10 CEST schrieb Chuck Sanders: > We got this generally sorted out on the US talk list, but I have a > follow-up question where I feel like I need the wisdom of the ORM > mailing > list more specifically. > > We have a long term need in North America to preface our current > combination of [ref=*] [name=*] for labelling of main tracks with > these > reporting marks, which is what got us started on the initial question > about > the tag a week and a half ago. It's a universal industry mapping > standard > here, and ORM won't be considered usable by the majority of potential > users > here until we get that done ... but we're a long way off, and right > now I'm > only concerned with a very specific question. > > In the vast majority of cases here, lines have a single operator, but > there > are many, many cases of multiple secondary operators (there is always > one What is a line? "Trains drive from A to B"? That is of no interest here, this is only about the infrastructure, which should in basically all cases just boil down to the owner. At least I _really_ doubt by all experience that more than 1, and by no practical means more than 2 companies can get it right to co-maintain such infrastructure. One that does the tracks and one for the signalling maybe, but everything else? Tell me how that really works ;) Maybe it works legally, but I fear for the safety of your infrastructure then :P

When you have a freight line running from coast to coast and where the engines come from 10 different companies, that is just a route=railway (or something similar) relation on top of that. This will not be rendered by OpenRailwayMap.

It's the same problem we have with all the subway infrastructure where people tend to add ref=N where N is the line number on that tracks. It could even be right, but in basically all cases it is not. Personal toy: in Hanover the lines are numbered, but the infrastructure has letters, so it's easy to spot wrong tagging.