(German below)
Dear railway mappers,
I would like to add some detail on railway and tram lines in my area and have been searching for a tag for "rail movement joints" / "railway expansion devices" (I found these terms online, the German term is "Auszugvorrichtung").
The feature in question is a device often found on railways at bridges or long straight tracks. It allows the tracks (and the bridge undereath) to expand or shrink in length (as a result of temperature change) without damage.
This seems to be the matching DIN EN: http://www.fsf.din.de/cmd?level=tpl-art-detailansicht&committeeid=547390...
...and BS EN: http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030214647
How should we tag these features in OSM?
railway=movement_joint?
railway=expension_device?
Which object type should be used? From a map perspective, they might be "point" features, marking the point where the tracks are cut. If you're a railway planner, however, you need to consider that the device itself has a length of several meters - not as big as the average switch/turnout, but still...
-Martin
Hallo Eisenbahn-Mapper!
Ich habe nach einem tag für Auszugvorrichtungen (Konstruktionen zur Aufnahme der Wärmedehnung der Schienen an Brücken oder langen Geraden) gesucht, weil ich ein paar Details zu Streckenabschnitten nachtragen wollte, mit denen ich zu tun hatte.
Wie sollen wir so etwas taggen?
Im Netz habe ich die oben aufgeführten Übersetzungen gefunden, die zu den genannten tags führen könnten.
Weiterhin müsste man sich gedanken machen, ob man die Stelle der Trennung als Punkt taggen will (generalisiert) oder die ganze Konstruktion von Schweißnaht zu Schweißnaht als Linie erfassen möchte. letzteres ist mit unserer erreichbaren Positionsgenauigkeit natürlich nicht ganz so einfach.
Gruß,
Martin
Hi Martin,
Am 2015-06-22 um 21:53 schrieb Martin Simon:
I would like to add some detail on railway and tram lines in my area and have been searching for a tag for "rail movement joints" / "railway expansion devices" (I found these terms online, the German term is "Auszugvorrichtung").
Is this a rail movement joint? http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vbvbEe2wwtF_4MlMw6cakw (zoom in) Btw, driving above it is horrible because it is no smooth curve.
How should we tag these features in OSM?
railway=movement_joint?
railway=expension_device?
Have you had a look into English books, professional railway magazines etc.? Which word do they use? I can have a look into UIC dictionary at university tomorrow (I just have to walk to another building of my university).
Which object type should be used? From a map perspective, they might be "point" features, marking the point where the tracks are cut. If you're a railway planner, however, you need to consider that the device itself has a length of several meters - not as big as the average switch/turnout, but still...
http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vbvbEe2wwtF_4MlMw6cakw is short, I would map it as a node. We also map switches with speed limits of 200 km/h as nodes!
Best regards
Michael
Good evening Michael,
while studying for my exams I came across your question and I'm happy to answer this one. I attached a link to an image from my railway engineering book, which confirms that it is an expansion device.
http://puu.sh/iyWhR/b070cc5e04.jpg
After my exams are finished I'll be more active on ORM again. Good luck!
Kind regards, Jeroen
Op 22 jun. 2015 om 23:23 heeft Michael Reichert nakaner@gmx.net het volgende geschreven:
Hi Martin,
Am 2015-06-22 um 21:53 schrieb Martin Simon:
I would like to add some detail on railway and tram lines in my area and have been searching for a tag for "rail movement joints" / "railway expansion devices" (I found these terms online, the German term is "Auszugvorrichtung").
Is this a rail movement joint? http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vbvbEe2wwtF_4MlMw6cakw (zoom in) Btw, driving above it is horrible because it is no smooth curve.
How should we tag these features in OSM?
railway=movement_joint?
railway=expension_device?
Have you had a look into English books, professional railway magazines etc.? Which word do they use? I can have a look into UIC dictionary at university tomorrow (I just have to walk to another building of my university).
Which object type should be used? From a map perspective, they might be "point" features, marking the point where the tracks are cut. If you're a railway planner, however, you need to consider that the device itself has a length of several meters - not as big as the average switch/turnout, but still...
http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vbvbEe2wwtF_4MlMw6cakw is short, I would map it as a node. We also map switches with speed limits of 200 km/h as nodes!
Best regards
Michael
-- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
Hello,
Translation of railway terms is difficult, as wording differs almost completely between British English and American English. Furthermore, I made the experience, that European standard documents (EN, UIC leaflets, EU legislation, ...) are a bad source, as they often use unusual language.
I found "adjustment switch" for British English (Iain Ellis: Ellis' British Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia; Railway Group Standard GC/RC5603 Standard Definitions of Civil Engineering Terms) and "expansion joint" for American English (TCRP Report 155: Track Design Handbook for Light Rail Transit). But thats the only American source I've found.
In British English, expansion joint denotes a normal rail joint with an expansion gap between rails (same sources as above).
I guess, you have to choose some tag in the end...
Micha
On 22.06.2015 21:53, Martin Simon wrote:
(German below)
Dear railway mappers,
I would like to add some detail on railway and tram lines in my area and have been searching for a tag for "rail movement joints" / "railway expansion devices" (I found these terms online, the German term is "Auszugvorrichtung").
The feature in question is a device often found on railways at bridges or long straight tracks. It allows the tracks (and the bridge undereath) to expand or shrink in length (as a result of temperature change) without damage.
This seems to be the matching DIN EN: http://www.fsf.din.de/cmd?level=tpl-art-detailansicht&committeeid=547390...
...and BS EN: http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030214647
How should we tag these features in OSM?
railway=movement_joint?
railway=expension_device?
Which object type should be used? From a map perspective, they might be "point" features, marking the point where the tracks are cut. If you're a railway planner, however, you need to consider that the device itself has a length of several meters - not as big as the average switch/turnout, but still...
-Martin
Hallo Eisenbahn-Mapper!
Ich habe nach einem tag für Auszugvorrichtungen (Konstruktionen zur Aufnahme der Wärmedehnung der Schienen an Brücken oder langen Geraden) gesucht, weil ich ein paar Details zu Streckenabschnitten nachtragen wollte, mit denen ich zu tun hatte.
Wie sollen wir so etwas taggen?
Im Netz habe ich die oben aufgeführten Übersetzungen gefunden, die zu den genannten tags führen könnten.
Weiterhin müsste man sich gedanken machen, ob man die Stelle der Trennung als Punkt taggen will (generalisiert) oder die ganze Konstruktion von Schweißnaht zu Schweißnaht als Linie erfassen möchte. letzteres ist mit unserer erreichbaren Positionsgenauigkeit natürlich nicht ganz so einfach.
Gruß,
Martin
Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
Good evening once again,
in response to Michael's mail, I'll send some more info. The source I was citing is 'Modern Railway Track' by Coenraad Esveld, second edition. The book is regarded as academic handbook on railway engineering and was written by a cooperation of Dutch, German, British, Austrian, Belgian, French, Japanese, Korean and UIC engineers. I think that, despite the absence of Russian and American engineers, it covers the global view on railway engineering very nicely.
Regarding the specific tastes of expansion systems we can consider: • fishplated joints in non-continuous track • joints and expansion devices • bridge transition structures
Additional there are two more joints without
Op 22 jun. 2015 om 23:42 heeft Michael Kümmling michael@kuemmling.eu het volgende geschreven:
Hello,
Translation of railway terms is difficult, as wording differs almost completely between British English and American English. Furthermore, I made the experience, that European standard documents (EN, UIC leaflets, EU legislation, ...) are a bad source, as they often use unusual language.
I found "adjustment switch" for British English (Iain Ellis: Ellis' British Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia; Railway Group Standard GC/RC5603 Standard Definitions of Civil Engineering Terms) and "expansion joint" for American English (TCRP Report 155: Track Design Handbook for Light Rail Transit). But thats the only American source I've found.
In British English, expansion joint denotes a normal rail joint with an expansion gap between rails (same sources as above).
I guess, you have to choose some tag in the end...
Micha
On 22.06.2015 21:53, Martin Simon wrote: (German below)
Dear railway mappers,
I would like to add some detail on railway and tram lines in my area and have been searching for a tag for "rail movement joints" / "railway expansion devices" (I found these terms online, the German term is "Auszugvorrichtung").
The feature in question is a device often found on railways at bridges or long straight tracks. It allows the tracks (and the bridge undereath) to expand or shrink in length (as a result of temperature change) without damage.
This seems to be the matching DIN EN: http://www.fsf.din.de/cmd?level=tpl-art-detailansicht&committeeid=547390...
...and BS EN: http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030214647
How should we tag these features in OSM?
railway=movement_joint?
railway=expension_device?
Which object type should be used? From a map perspective, they might be "point" features, marking the point where the tracks are cut. If you're a railway planner, however, you need to consider that the device itself has a length of several meters - not as big as the average switch/turnout, but still...
-Martin
Hallo Eisenbahn-Mapper!
Ich habe nach einem tag für Auszugvorrichtungen (Konstruktionen zur Aufnahme der Wärmedehnung der Schienen an Brücken oder langen Geraden) gesucht, weil ich ein paar Details zu Streckenabschnitten nachtragen wollte, mit denen ich zu tun hatte.
Wie sollen wir so etwas taggen?
Im Netz habe ich die oben aufgeführten Übersetzungen gefunden, die zu den genannten tags führen könnten.
Weiterhin müsste man sich gedanken machen, ob man die Stelle der Trennung als Punkt taggen will (generalisiert) oder die ganze Konstruktion von Schweißnaht zu Schweißnaht als Linie erfassen möchte. letzteres ist mit unserer erreichbaren Positionsgenauigkeit natürlich nicht ganz so einfach.
Gruß,
Martin
Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
(continuing on the first part of my mail which I already sent by accident)
Additional there are two more joints without the possibility of expansion. We can define: • metallurgical welds • glued insulated joints
These links provide the information and graphics from the book: http://puu.sh/iyZLs/9a7d6ab8e0.jpg http://puu.sh/iyZMR/e3b874c9bb.jpg http://puu.sh/iyYSE/c9742ad52a.jpg
More information on the book can be found at http://esveld.com/MRT.html.
Depending on what Michael needs, I advice him to choose expansion joint or expansion device (the difference is in the occurence of a glide plane). I think that "adjustment switch" is too specific for the British situation.
Kind regards, Jeroen
Op 23 jun. 2015 om 00:30 heeft JJJ Wegdam jwegdam@me.com het volgende geschreven:
Good evening once again,
in response to Michael's mail, I'll send some more info. The source I was citing is 'Modern Railway Track' by Coenraad Esveld, second edition. The book is regarded as academic handbook on railway engineering and was written by a cooperation of Dutch, German, British, Austrian, Belgian, French, Japanese, Korean and UIC engineers. I think that, despite the absence of Russian and American engineers, it covers the global view on railway engineering very nicely.
Regarding the specific tastes of expansion systems we can consider: • fishplated joints in non-continuous track • joints and expansion devices • bridge transition structures
Additional there are two more joints without
Op 22 jun. 2015 om 23:42 heeft Michael Kümmling michael@kuemmling.eu het volgende geschreven:
Hello,
Translation of railway terms is difficult, as wording differs almost completely between British English and American English. Furthermore, I made the experience, that European standard documents (EN, UIC leaflets, EU legislation, ...) are a bad source, as they often use unusual language.
I found "adjustment switch" for British English (Iain Ellis: Ellis' British Railway Engineering Encyclopaedia; Railway Group Standard GC/RC5603 Standard Definitions of Civil Engineering Terms) and "expansion joint" for American English (TCRP Report 155: Track Design Handbook for Light Rail Transit). But thats the only American source I've found.
In British English, expansion joint denotes a normal rail joint with an expansion gap between rails (same sources as above).
I guess, you have to choose some tag in the end...
Micha
On 22.06.2015 21:53, Martin Simon wrote: (German below)
Dear railway mappers,
I would like to add some detail on railway and tram lines in my area and have been searching for a tag for "rail movement joints" / "railway expansion devices" (I found these terms online, the German term is "Auszugvorrichtung").
The feature in question is a device often found on railways at bridges or long straight tracks. It allows the tracks (and the bridge undereath) to expand or shrink in length (as a result of temperature change) without damage.
This seems to be the matching DIN EN: http://www.fsf.din.de/cmd?level=tpl-art-detailansicht&committeeid=547390...
...and BS EN: http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030214647
How should we tag these features in OSM?
railway=movement_joint?
railway=expension_device?
Which object type should be used? From a map perspective, they might be "point" features, marking the point where the tracks are cut. If you're a railway planner, however, you need to consider that the device itself has a length of several meters - not as big as the average switch/turnout, but still...
-Martin
Hallo Eisenbahn-Mapper!
Ich habe nach einem tag für Auszugvorrichtungen (Konstruktionen zur Aufnahme der Wärmedehnung der Schienen an Brücken oder langen Geraden) gesucht, weil ich ein paar Details zu Streckenabschnitten nachtragen wollte, mit denen ich zu tun hatte.
Wie sollen wir so etwas taggen?
Im Netz habe ich die oben aufgeführten Übersetzungen gefunden, die zu den genannten tags führen könnten.
Weiterhin müsste man sich gedanken machen, ob man die Stelle der Trennung als Punkt taggen will (generalisiert) oder die ganze Konstruktion von Schweißnaht zu Schweißnaht als Linie erfassen möchte. letzteres ist mit unserer erreichbaren Positionsgenauigkeit natürlich nicht ganz so einfach.
Gruß,
Martin
Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
Hi all,
thanks for all replies!
to Michael Reichert: yes, this is exactly what I want to tag.
The ones that inspired the original email are for grooved rails and look like this: https://goo.gl/photos/KtiFVMHAtfpLsLmF8 They are more massive because the water has to be collected and drained and the movable parts have to be separated from the covering material (asphalt concrete, paving stones, etc).
2015-06-23 0:44 GMT+02:00 JJJ Wegdam jwegdam@me.com:
(continuing on the first part of my mail which I already sent by accident)
Additional there are two more joints without the possibility of expansion. We can define: • metallurgical welds • glued insulated joints
These links provide the information and graphics from the book: http://puu.sh/iyZLs/9a7d6ab8e0.jpg http://puu.sh/iyZMR/e3b874c9bb.jpg http://puu.sh/iyYSE/c9742ad52a.jpg
More information on the book can be found at http://esveld.com/MRT.html.
Depending on what Michael needs, I advice him to choose expansion joint or expansion device (the difference is in the occurence of a glide plane). I think that "adjustment switch" is too specific for the British situation.
I think we should find a tagging solution to cover all of these cases.
The terms in Jeroen's book seem pretty clear and logical, so I'd like to use these.
Doing so, we could start with:
railway=expansion_device (with a glide plane, e.g. my photo )
railway=expansion_joint (type of expansion joint should be subtagged, maybe there are more than just fishplated expansion joints)
railway=insulation_joint (again with subtagging of type/method/material)
railway=bridge_transition_structure (well, we should discuss if this can be a subtype of "expansion_device" and if the type of possible movement should always be subtagged)
railway=joint (normal (fishplated) joint, I hope no one wants to tag those, except for significant points (switch beginning and end, change in rail profile, etc))
railway=weld, weld="type" (same remark as for normal joints)
What do you think?
-Martin
Good afternoon contributors,
now that the holidays have started and that my exams are over, I'm looking forward to continue on the Dutch content of ORM. I still have a lot of data available and even aquired new data on the electrical catenary systems.
In order to inform you on the Dutch situation and to discuss how to implement it's data, I propose to arrange an online meeting. Through skype, mumble, teamspeak, or whatever other client you guys like. With this approach I hope to avoid many e-mail threads and faster concensus.
If you are interested to join in on the conversation, please leave a reply. A date and client will be chosen later. Thank you in advance.
Kind regards, Jeroen
Hi Jeroen,
On Sa, 2015-07-11 at 14:47 +0200, JJJ Wegdam wrote:
Good afternoon contributors,
now that the holidays have started and that my exams are over, I'm looking forward to continue on the Dutch content of ORM. I still have a lot of data available and even aquired new data on the electrical catenary systems.
same here, my first exams are now over too. Sorry, that our discussions almost stopped in the last weeks, but it seems that you were busy, too... I hope that we can finally make some progress in the next weeks and months.
In order to inform you on the Dutch situation and to discuss how to implement it's data, I propose to arrange an online meeting. Through skype, mumble, teamspeak, or whatever other client you guys like. With this approach I hope to avoid many e-mail threads and faster concensus.
If you are interested to join in on the conversation, please leave a reply. A date and client will be chosen later. Thank you in advance.
Good idea. I am on travel until 2nd August. When I am back at home, we can arrange a discussion.
Regards Alex
Hello everyone,
as we speak I'm on my way back home, to the Netherlands. Just had a very nice holiday in süd-Tirol and I'm currently enjoying the last day at a halfway-stop in Würzburg.
Now that myself and Alex will both be back from travel from wensday on, I'd like to invite those who are interested in discussing the setup of Dutch railway mapping to join in on a live online conversation. If you are interested please reply by sending suggestions for date and time.
Kind regards, Jeroen
Op 18 jul. 2015 om 00:55 heeft Alexander Matheisen AlexanderMatheisen@ish.de het volgende geschreven:
Hi Jeroen,
On Sa, 2015-07-11 at 14:47 +0200, JJJ Wegdam wrote: Good afternoon contributors,
now that the holidays have started and that my exams are over, I'm looking forward to continue on the Dutch content of ORM. I still have a lot of data available and even aquired new data on the electrical catenary systems.
same here, my first exams are now over too. Sorry, that our discussions almost stopped in the last weeks, but it seems that you were busy, too... I hope that we can finally make some progress in the next weeks and months.
In order to inform you on the Dutch situation and to discuss how to implement it's data, I propose to arrange an online meeting. Through skype, mumble, teamspeak, or whatever other client you guys like. With this approach I hope to avoid many e-mail threads and faster concensus.
If you are interested to join in on the conversation, please leave a reply. A date and client will be chosen later. Thank you in advance.
Good idea. I am on travel until 2nd August. When I am back at home, we can arrange a discussion.
Regards Alex _______________________________________________ Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
Hi,
Am 2015-08-03 um 10:43 schrieb JJJ Wegdam:
Now that myself and Alex will both be back from travel from wensday on, I'd like to invite those who are interested in discussing the setup of Dutch railway mapping to join in on a live online conversation. If you are interested please reply by sending suggestions for date and time.
I suggest tomorrow (Thursday, 2015-08-06, 19:00 CEST = 17:00 UTC) at my Mumble server. Server: michreichert.de The server requires a password (one for all users). You can request it via private email or private IRC message. You need Mumble at your computer to participate this meeting.
Best regards
Michael
Am Dienstag, 4. August 2015, 19:33:43 schrieb Michael Reichert:
Hi,
Am 2015-08-03 um 10:43 schrieb JJJ Wegdam:
Now that myself and Alex will both be back from travel from wensday on, I'd like to invite those who are interested in discussing the setup of Dutch railway mapping to join in on a live online conversation. If you are interested please reply by sending suggestions for date and time.
I suggest tomorrow (Thursday, 2015-08-06, 19:00 CEST = 17:00 UTC) at my Mumble server. Server: michreichert.de The server requires a password (one for all users). You can request it via private email or private IRC message. You need Mumble at your computer to participate this meeting.
Another location would be the #OpenRailwayMap on OFTC IRC network, no? Not that I care much, I'll probably don't have time anyway. But it's easier to read the log then ;)
Eike
Good morning,
thanks for the replies. Michael's suggestion is fine by me, because I know mumble and used it before. I hope Alex could join in, because he was interested aswell. In any case, I'll prepare some sort of agenda in which I take you through • the current status of the Dutch railway data • the available data that could be implemented • the knowledge that I could provide to the ORM wiki with finally room to discuss an overall plan. To do so I would recommend JoinMe, which is a programme that I often use to share my desktop. If you could connect I can also show you what the data looks like in Q-gis, give examples of the current OSM data in the Netherlands and show some sketches of how the Dutch signalling could be mapped.
Kind regards, Jeroen
Op 4 aug. 2015 om 19:49 heeft Rolf Eike Beer eike@sf-mail.de het volgende geschreven:
Am Dienstag, 4. August 2015, 19:33:43 schrieb Michael Reichert:
Hi,
Am 2015-08-03 um 10:43 schrieb JJJ Wegdam: Now that myself and Alex will both be back from travel from wensday on, I'd like to invite those who are interested in discussing the setup of Dutch railway mapping to join in on a live online conversation. If you are interested please reply by sending suggestions for date and time.
I suggest tomorrow (Thursday, 2015-08-06, 19:00 CEST = 17:00 UTC) at my Mumble server. Server: michreichert.de The server requires a password (one for all users). You can request it via private email or private IRC message. You need Mumble at your computer to participate this meeting.
Another location would be the #OpenRailwayMap on OFTC IRC network, no? Not that I care much, I'll probably don't have time anyway. But it's easier to read the log then ;)
Eike _______________________________________________ Openrailwaymap mailing list Openrailwaymap@openrailwaymap.org http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/lists/listinfo/openrailwaymap
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JJJ Wegdam -
Martin Simon -
Michael Kümmling -
Michael Reichert -
Rolf Eike Beer